A8v6 with h17
  • I noticed that BS for h17 says to double A8v6. Can anyone enlighten me as to the logic behind this?
  • where did you see that strategy?
  • You're right, Mr. Ed.
    With dealer hitting soft 17, you also double A7 vs 2 and double 11 vs dealer Ace.
    I don't understand the rationale either, but check out the tables at blackjackinfo.com.
    I would also like someone to explain reasons to me.
  • ok, think of it this way.

    figure out every card possible that you could get and the total.
    would you want that hand vs. a 6?
    and would you want the ability to double your bet?

    i dont think all strategies say to double on that. but i could be wrong.
  • The odds on this hand are hit=+0.233, stand=+0.496 and double=+0.466

    But, I think the real reason is a result of the possible cards that the dealer
    can draw and the resulting strength of his hand. Most cards give the dealer
    a very weak hand or a stiff going into the fourth card. Mr Ed, were back to
    that situation that you pointed out earlier. Possible cards combined with

  • And ,of course the high probability that with his first two cards he has
    a stiff to begin with......
  • Here are my thoughts:

    With h17, the dealer is more likely to bust.
    With h17, if the dealer doesn't bust, he's got about equal probability of getting 17, 18, 19, 20 or 21 (average 19); with s17, if he doesn't bust he's more likely to end up with just 17.

    Now with dealer 6, you want more money on the table to take advantage of dealer's busts.

    With h17, your guaranteed 19 is not worth as much, since the dealer will now average 19, instead of getting 17 more of the time with s17 (if he doesn't bust)

    The problem with doubling is that you will loose more often since sometimes you'll end up with 16 or less.

    In total: When you double with A8v6, the balance is now tipped slightly:
    a. you get more money when the the dealer busts
    b. you lose more when you get 16 or less
    c. no change if dealer does not bust AND you have 17 or more.
    = a is bigger than b so you have a slight advantage from doubling A8v6 with h17.

  • Fred Renzy in Blackjack Bluebook also says to double soft 19 against dealers up card of 5 or 6. As I remember it he says you will be a faverate to win either way, but will make more money if you double than if you stand.

  • Tuffy88, Renzeys recommendations for A8 vs 5,6 assume an advantage
    above basic strategy. It's approx +1 and its shown in "board counting"
    and in the A/10 front count concepts. So the situation is somewhat different......

  • Gents – I think maybe you are making this one harder than it really is. The correct play for A8 vs 6 (and 5) is simply a function of the high/low composition of the remaining cards in the decks…..i.e. it is a function of the count.

    As the percentage of low cards removed increases (and the count rises), doubling against six becomes an even stronger play and doubling against five (and even four) are also are the correct play(s).


    p.s….I will be playing for the next three days, but will be back Thursday to answer any replies
  • PJ, Did my explanation help you understand? Let me know.

    When I get some time, I'll take a look at A7v2 and 11vA. Let me know if there are any other moves that confuse you and I'll take a look when I get some time.

    For everyone else:

    We seem to have two discussions going on here:

    1. When the dealer hists soft 17 (h17), basic strategy (BS) is to double A8v6.

    2. When the dealer stands on soft 17 (s17), BS is to stand A8v6, AND the index says to double A8v6 when the true count (TC) is +1 or higher. (At TC=+2 or more, the index says to double A8v5, as well)

    I started the thread with discussion 1.
  • Based on experience levels, I think that we should just stick to BS
    variations for different rules. If you get into index numbers, the ball
    game gets more complicated and we should not go there for most
    viewers. My opinion gentleman............

    The eight doubles and 44 split or double would be good examples...
  • Mr. Ed and Ray,
    This forum is providing great info. Yes, you have enlightened me on the subject. What has always puzzled me about h17 is that while it is a disadvantage to the player, we are instructed to make seemingly risky plays like double down A7 vs 2, etc. My better understanding of these rationales will make me a better player for sure.
    BTW, what about splitting 4's? Isn't it proper against dealer 5 & 6?
  • Also, my latest challenges at the tables involve multi-card 16's when the dealer has 9 or 10 showing.(no surrender allowed) I believe Fred's book covers this situation pretty well, so you may not want to dedicate that much time here. I believe I have been hitting these 16's when the proper play is to stand. I will do some studying on this.
  • PJ, In some single deck games BS has 8v5,6 doubles, but 4,4 should
    split vs 4,5,6. I have not seen a single deck game in so long that I can't
    remember the reasoning behind this play and I'm too lazy to look it up.
    But, because we are on this subject I thought someone would give me a
    free ride.........

  • Got unlazy for a few minutes and looked at some old notes. Some
    BS charts show the 44 split over double in single deck games. Others,
    experts if you will, say to double down with 44v6 because of the effect
    that 4's and 6's being removed increases the bust probability for the
    dealer. At any rate, I don't think we need to give this one any more
    consideration. I think this game may be obsolete anyway, even in LV.

  • Good question, PJ. Those doubles with h17 puzzled me, too - it seemed to defy logic. I don't have time yet to tackle the others.

    As for 16v10, the index is +0, that is, if the running count is more than zero, you should stand. So even if you're not counting, if you see more small cards than (2-6) than big cards (10-A) on the table, then stand.
  • Mr. Ed, Ray,
    Your comments and the strategy from Renzey's book are very helpful. Over the last couple of years my experience has been with 6 deck. My confidence is much improved and I've had better than expected results. What are your thoughts about double deck games? The problem with single deck is the 6/5 payout on naturals. Would I do just as well staying with the shoe games? My understanding, however, is that 2D rules usually have higher table mimimums. My bankroll is limited, but I did jump to a $25 table during my last trip with some success.
  • 6/5 overwhelms any advantage from single deck - don't play it. Any good blackjack book will tell you the advantage/disadvantage from any rules, including number of decks. Many 6d games have a better EV than 2d games, it depends on the rules.

    Counters like 2d games better because there are more high counts than with 6d games, reqardless of the EV. My local casino only has 8d games and that's the only game I've played since I learned how to play.

    The best games (best EV) are usually in the "high rollers" area, with table minimums of $100, well out of my reach. If you do play at Quarter tables, please do your homework and be aware of the risk to your bankroll - don't play beyond your means just for a small increase in EV. Variance will wipe you out.

    Good luck. You are on the right path.

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