The end of cardcounting?
  • A few days ago I caught wind of a potent new weapon that Vegas casinos supposedly are adopting now. It's software, a program called Blackjack Survey Voice. What the program does is generate a statistical graph of a player's playing strategy; BSV can apparently identify an adept Blackjack player within roughly 75-150 hands of play in a 6-deck shoe. No matter what covery strategy you use or how many "mistakes" you make, this program analyzes whether you have more money out on the plus side of a count than the minus side. It also determines when you are accurately making play variations from basic strategy & even when you are attempting to disguise said variations. From what I've heard, you simply can't hide from BSV. Arnold Snyder advises that we no longer bet with the count--it's just a matter of time before you are backed off the table.

    I'm not sure how much truth there is to the above statements; this is just what I've picked up. Does anyone know about Blackjack Survey Voice? What do you think about this? Anything we can do?

    The Mad Pencil
  • The Mad Pencil said:
    Does anyone know about Blackjack Survey Voice?
    The Mad Pencil

    Apparently made by a company called Casino Software. Supposedly used to rate and track a player. A Google turned up this:

    However the company's own website seems very interesting.
    Although most of the links were forbidden, you can still get an overview of what this is about, Go to
  • Well then................... sucks for Renzey and all the card counters!
  • Actually I think it sucks for anyone who wants to approximate a level playing field, not just counters. The fact that a computerized system is used to track a players betting trends should be threatening to everyone who plays.

    I'm new to this, but the more I learn, the more I wonder why these casinos are allowed to have God-like powers over the players. (Don't answer, I know: $$$$$ >> hosting state).

    Look at all their advertising, and think about it. You're told: "Come on down, life is great, you deserve it! Have a ball! Win some cash! "

    Glitter, comfort, fun, vacation, sex (implied{look at the recent Vegas ad blitz}).

    But be a consistent winner, and you're booted. Talk about consumer rights.

    Just my .02

  • Makes me wanna shut up about my heavy cover method for a lousy +0.2%...

  • I'm new to Blackjack too, jm. Now I have mixed feelings about this newest development.

    My survival instincts say to forget about 21 & get the hell out. If Survey Voice & other AI tools are going to be used in the future, then we would be fools to play a losing game. Right now I hear video poker is pretty good if you know how to play it right. (Off-topic, I know. If you want to reply to this, e-mail me.)

    My other instinct, however, says fight! Why should we take this lying down? The casinos should give us a fair shake. We (at least I) don't ask for a fix, I just want an honest game & a chance to play well. If I lose I lose; if not, great. May the best man win! That's one of the reasons I started getting into Blackjack: The challenge, akin to a duel--I may be outgunned but not out-thought. Now they have computers to out-think us, too! At this point I feel like going to the Gaming Commission & making some noise. (Yes, I'm in Las Vegas.)

    BUT. It would probably be a dumb move. Look at Kenny Uston. He made a racket & got the courts in New Jersey to rule in his favor, but casinos everywhere got nervous & started their countermeasures as a result. It's possible we would have a slightly easier time if Uston hadn't raised such a stink; maybe the casino bosses would figure we were stupider than we really are & so wouldn't harden the game so much. No way to tell now, of course.

    What do you guys think? I don't know what to think. I'd like to hear from the more knowledgable players on this site, though.

    The Mad Pencil
  • When it comes to shoe games, I'm a table hopper, so if it takes between 75-150 hands for the software to identify a counter, it's not going to change my strategy one iota. For 6 or 8 deck shoes I'll have backcounted the table before I even sit down to play it. Likewise, I'll be bolting from the table as soon as the count goes sufficiently against me. In short, I won't be there nearly long enough for the computer to get a read.

    Seems to me that if casinos want to totally eliminate counters all they'd have to do is implement those Continuous Shuffling Machines (or whatever they're called) that constantly shuffle the cards. That's it... no more counting.

    Of course, then someone across the street could just open up a good old-fashioned single deck game and put the CSM place out of business, couldn't they?

    Anyway, my 2 cents.
  • I'm not your most knowledgable source either( can't even spell knowledgable) but I would guess that card counters or advantaged players do not, have not, and probably never will affect casinos' bottom line enough to hurt them. Good advantage players are so few, and combined with the vast majority of average or poor players, casinos should continue to enjoy their profits for a long time. It seems to me all the countermeasures and tactics being implemented would drive players away more often than attract them. If the game of Blackjack is that sensitive, why don't they just stop offering it altogether and fill up the floorspace with more slot machines and craps tables?
  • Actually, thats EXACTLY whats happening here in the NE corner. Quite a few 21 tables have been eliminated in favor of higher HA games such as 3 card poker, Casino War, Let it Ride, Carib. Stud... etc. Moreover, the slots are growing in both denomination and count. Its tougher to find a quarter slot these days than 3 yrs. ago. Nickel slots are essentially extinct. VP up here sucks... essentially 96% for quarters and maybe 98% for a $ machine. But them slots take 90% of your money and the $ ones maybe 92%. And they just cant stuff enuff of 'em in a room.

    21 has not changed here since inception... DS17, 6/8 decks, DAS, SP4H, NoRSA. Only the table minimums are up. FOXWOODS used to have 6-8 $2 tables packed and waiting. NO MORE. The $5 table for regular 21 has also gone the way of Tyrannosaurus Rex, although gimmick 21 like Bonanza Blackjack still has a $5 + $1 minimum. $10 seems to be bare minimum.

    I notice that much of LV, and NV now have WORSE HA 21 than us.... I find that quite paradoxical. But the NE Corner still does not have the attractions for a "vacation" as it were.

    N&B in the Kingdom of the One-Armed Bandit
  • Supply and demand. They have the supply of players, so they can demand higher limits. I am sure that both the Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun don't have to worry about slow days. Here Mondays were the slow days for the casino. They are now Very busy. Why ? From 10 am until 10 pm they offer 25 cent craps and $2.00 BJ. Also all the Taco's you can eat for a buck. Mondays crowds now look like they do on Saturday night.
  • That does bother me a little, N&B, to see good games fall away. Even considering the increases in numbers of gamblers around the country, casinos and management seem to be taking tougher stands. I hope some of these trends prove to be temporary.
  • Nickels_n_Bullets said:
    But them slots take 90% of your money and the $ ones maybe 92%. And they just cant stuff enuff of 'em in a room.

    News report yesterday said that Connecticut's take from Foxwood and Mohegan for one month was 13 Million. That's just from slots alone, and that's ONLY the 25% they're required to pay the state. Amazing!

    Nickels_n_Bullets said:
    But the NE Corner still does not have the attractions for a "vacation" as it were.

    Well, our Governor seems to be very entertaining lately :)
  • Well, our Governor seems to be very entertaining lately.

    Yeah... nice cottage eh? Maybe a kiss n make up present for the wife...
    or a drug rehab center for the step-son. What an embarASSment.

    I read the take #s in the Courant.... I figure 9% HA based on those receipts.

    N&B "outta da Weicker and into the Rowland"
  • PJ.... bring a flashlite and a case of batteries.... you'll be waitin awhile!

  • That is the one egotistical fault here in the NE Corner. Both places endure the slow periods rather than offer day-time low limit games.
    Even $5 BJ seems to be outta the question....

    Now here's what bugs me... most of us plainly see that increased activity occurs with the low-limit games. Thats what gets 'em in the door. 21, craps, table games. The slots are the $$$ makers and have been. 9% HA at 360 spins/hr. times coins in. Blackjack -1% at 60 rounds/hr to an advantage player at 2.5 times table min. Uhhh, maybe LOWER the minimum and the spread?!?!?! Maybe $5-$50 BJ, rather than $25-$3000.

    Imagine the CT palaces offering the General public 2-20, 5-50, and 10-100. Hi rollers 100-1000, 500-5000, and 1000-house.

    So hubby makes $200 shootin crap,... wifey drops $300 in the $ slots in the same time. Looks like +$100 HA.

    N&B preffered brand of canned worms to pit bosses everywhere

Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!