EIGHT DECKS
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Because I'm in 8 deck country for other reasons(never played 8 deck),
I've been wondering just how tough is this game. So, let me ask the
few: Have you played the 8 deck game using a level one count system?
If yes, do you think the playing efficiency for any of these systems is
adquate/up to the task? My thoughts turn to the fact that you are playing
at a disadvantage for such long periods. Also, having the advantage for,
lets say, one deck just will not allow enough money to be bet. If you
look at the "MENTOR" system which "TRUES" to two and has a high play
efficiency, then a system like that appears more suitable. You may be
able to exploit the true to two feature more toward two decks of advantage rather than one.( even if the advantage is not as strong at
the five deck level)
I need your thoughts........
Ray -
Ray: The disadvantage of playing 8 decks is about the same as playing 6 decks, and not much worse than 4 decks. The big difference might be in hands-per-hour played, since the dealer doesn't shuffel as often. The biggest problem with multiple-deck play is the size of the bet spread required to overcome the house edge, and the big jump in bet size will most likely expose you as a counter.
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Ray, if you don't get your answer answered here sufficiently, I'd recommend "advantageplayer.com", administered by Don Schlesinger and other experts on advantage play.
I have only have experience playing 8 deck. What Walter says is true (and you touched on it yourself), you spend a lot of time waiting for high counts. However, it seems to me (selective memory here) when my lucky streaks hit, they seem to be independent of the count! When the count is high, I (seem to) end up with a lot of give and take and might end the shoe up one (big) bet.
But enough of my near-sightedness, onto business; You probably know this already, but the most important thing (after decent rules, of course) is the depth of penetration. An 8 deck game with less than 1 deck cut off is a very good game. I wouldn't despair just because you only have 8 deck available. However, if you plan to make more than minimum wage, you'll need to play at green level or higher.
Good luck!
p.s. Is your "8 deck land" in CT? -
Thanks Guys, I don't live in the mid-hudson valley but, my company
has a strong presence there. I've been in that area many, many times for meetings regarding research projects, and other tech stuff. My question
is more about performance rather than the techniques of advantage
play(that part is assumed). I relate performance to the difficulty one
has, even in the 6 deck game. Little wonder then that the 8 deck game
has me pondering some alternative should I elect to take on this game.
Proper Risk management(play efficiency) and getting enough money
in the game(bet efficiency) are both central to the performance question.
I doubt that a single level count system can accomplish these goals.
Mr Ed,,,My first management school was in CT and there were no Casinos.
Like myself, all you Guys had to find your way "WEST".
Ray -
RAY: Because you do spend so much of your time playing with a disadvantage in the eight deck game, backcounting should become a big part of it. It's somewhat of a natural solution since when you do find a positive count with a known edge, it will last longer than with fewer decks.
Basic strategywise, there's only about 0.03% difference between six decks and eight. But with the long lulls between positive counts, it turns out to be more, perhaps around 0.15% for a counter if you're playing all the way through (this last estimate is a hazy recall of some computer sims I did a few years ago). -
Fred, When you developed the "MENTOR" count and elected to TRUE
to two decks, did you have the shoe games in mind. Or am I trying
for some technique that just is not there?
Ray -
RAY: With any "balanced" count such as the Mentor, I prefer to true up to two decks rather than one for a couple of reasons. First, truing at two decks, all your index numbers will double, giving you greater accuracy. Also any truing errors due to rounding will then be smaller errors. But the big reason is that I play primarily shoe games. So when the shoe gets down to crunch time (near the shuffle), there's very little converting to do with respect to determining your true count from the running count.
For example, when 2.5 decks remain, just multiply your running count by .8. When 2 decks remain, your running count IS your true count. When 1.5 decks remain, just multiply your running count by one and one-third. Etc.
Note however, that the Mentor Count will outperform the KISS III by only about 0.07% in the shoe game, and that's without making any refinements to the KISS which can pick you up another 0.03% or 0.04%. -
Thanks Fred, I see your point about ease of use(especially for shoe gms)
at money time; the multipliers are simple down to the end. I assume that
8 dks will show a trend after approx. 3 decks(+3 for High/Low or +6 Mentor) if your backcounting.
Ray -
RAY: A +3 Hi/Lo true count equals a +12 Mentor true count. That's because first, the Hi/Lo counts all its cards as +/- one point, while the Mentor counts its core cards as +/- two points each. That doubles all the running count and true count values. Then, if you're truing up the Hi/Lo to one deck, but the Mentor to two decks, that doubles all the numbers again.
By the way, I neglected to mention that although the Mentor outperforms the KISS III by only 0.07% in the shoe game, it's better than the KISS III by 0.13% in the two deck game.
You may have mentioned in a past post, something about currently being a Hi/Lo user. For the extra effort, the Mentor outperforms the Hi/Lo by 0.05% in the shoe game and by 0.08% in double deck play. -
Fred, With true count and index numbers off by a factor of 4 any quick
conversion to "MENTOR" is ruled out. The actual counting is the
easier part. Interesting! How did you do it??
Ray -
RAY: Not sure I understand -- how did I do what?
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Fred, I assumed that you converted an existing sys into the Mentor count and (right or wrong) I was thinking of trying that approach. After a closer
look, this seems impractical due to the great difference in numbers
and methods. All I did was confuse myself and screw-up the numbers
as you have seen. Sorry for my rambling.............
Ray -
Greektown Casino in Detroit uses 8-deck shoes and I think the deck penetration was VERY deep (close to 3 decks). I'm fairly new at counting and am still just using KISS I method. I never could get a "Good" count, was I wasting my time trying?
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D said:Greektown Casino in Detroit uses 8-deck shoes and I think the deck penetration was VERY deep (close to 3 decks). I'm fairly new at counting and am still just using KISS I method. I never could get a "Good" count, was I wasting my time trying?
D...... Playing at a table with penetration of 63% to 65% is definitely a waste of time -
D, According to GARY PLAYER, Golf is a game played with inadquate
tools. In my very honest opinion, KISS I and an eight deck shoe is
much the same.
Unless your name is WOODS.............
Ray -
D........I forgot about you being a school teacher:
inadquate = inadequate -
Well, at least I'm getting in lots of "real" practice with all the distractions. Thanks for the advice. Don't worry about the spelling; I can recognize a typo. Don't you wish this thing had a spell check?
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D, It's like Einstein said in one of his books on the "Theory of Relativity":
"I'll leave elegance to the tailor and cobbler"......yes spell chk would help.
Ray -
Wildbill, maybe I said it wrong. The cut card was placed 3 decks from the back. Did I state it backwards?
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Eight Decks here in CT also there are SIX. Sun has them and has continuous 4 decks. Best game is 6 decks with 75% penetration (4.5 decks). Mid-week AM is $10, nites n wkends are $25.
Level 1's do well on 8 decks if its simple +/-, using Basic, or the proper index strategy. You can bet 1-6 spread with about 0.75% PA using BS.
A5 strategy needs 1-4 parlay for an even game, but parlay 1-8 has a 0.15% PA.
Much better results using 6 decks in the same building! Foxwoods strictly 8 decks, MS both 6&8. Spanish 21 availible using 8 decks only.
Hope this helps
N&B -
Can anyone help a somewhat "advanced" BS player with this question?
Assuming my bankroll is adequate, wouldn't it be better to play fewer than 6 decks, say a double deck pitch game, even for a non-counter, since fewer decks mean stronger advantage? -
IF you can find 'em. Look carefully at the rules. Dealer HITS soft 17 two decks is worse than 8 decks dealer STANDS soft 17. Scams include 6/5 BJ... 1.5% house Adv.!
Find a 2 deck DS17 with 3/2 BJ and go for it. Keep the bet spread 1-5 MAX. for red chip, 1-4 with green chip or black chip.
Good cards
N&B -
NnB, What is a level 1 player?
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Level 1 refers to a counting method that uses a +/- 1 method of keeping score. Cards have a +1, 0 or -1 value. The popular hi-lo count is an example of this, as well as Uston's A-5 method.
Level 2 would mean that the cards can be valued at +2, +1, 0, -1, or -2. Examples include the simple 10's count, and the Revere Advanced Strategy.
Complex counts usually indicate halves. +1, +0.5, 0, -1 is a simple example. These can get nasty but accurate.
hope this helps.
N&B -
Thanks N n B I'm a new user of Renzey's KISS III. I guess that's a level 1.
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